Please, hobby, stop this "racial aesthetic" nonsense.

[Lily]

I am beginning to hate the word "aesthetic" with a powerful hate. There's two reasons:

1) For a group of mostly American and European women to claim that actual Asian dolls "don't meet an Asian aesthetic" while ones designed by certain Americans and Europeans do is so racist it takes my breath away. Asian dolls, designed and made by Asians, for an Asian market - that, madams, is an Asian Aesthetic as far as the word has meaning at all. Telling Asian people that what they do just isn't Asian enough and they can do Asian better is the worst kind of Orientalism.I know they'll probably clutch their pearls in dismay if anyone calls them racist, but - yeah, it's racist.

Also, Asian =/= anime. For heaven's sake.

2) "Chinese dolls just don't have the right (Korean or Japanese) aesthetic." Crap. No one can tell me, or at least tell me convincingly, that Iplehouse Dexter is more aesthetically like Customhouse Enfent Ai Choo than Volks Souseiseki is aesthetically like TwoS Mayi. There are huge differences in aesthetics within countries, and even more huge similarities across, and I know from experience that hobbyists who don't know a company will assume an expensive doll they like is Korean while a less expensive doll is Chinese, regardless of fact. Or "aesthetics".

Isn't it time all this nonsense was dropped and people just started talking about features and styles they like or don't like? "Aesthetic" is used as a completely meaningless term for "I like this or I don't like it" (Remember when Dahlia Lusion was purely European aesthetic, and now she's classic Japanese aesthetic (despite being Korean) and oh-so-Asian? I bet you do).

And especially it's used as a cover for Sinophobia. Because my heavens, is Sinophobia tolerated and even encouraged in this hobby.

I would like people to actually talk about styles and features, and not fling "aesthetic" around as a cover-all term. And talk about companies and dolls, not countries.

[Alopecia No Hime]

This...So effing much. If I hear one more crap about: "Your obitsu isn't a real ABJD because of the aesthetics DOA set out so therefor your null in void." I'm gonna scream my head off and put a nice little dent in their oh so expensive SOOM...

I swear to god if Den of Angels hadn't set out their predjiduced list about 'inferior' dolls half this shit about the aesthetics would be lost. Just because their full of experts on resin don't mean their nice. I'd rather buy an Obitsu then a fairyland any day of the week and will proudly call it an ABJD.

I would love nothing more then to take DOA down a notch.

[Jobee]

Let's not rip on DoA, Greyhaunt doesn't like that. And I have some perfectly reasonable friends there.

[quidam]

There are many people (dare I say most?) in the BJD and ABJD hobby who couldn't care less about DOA rules outside of their forum. While they are a good resource, they certainly don't make the "rules" of the hobby. They only make the rules of their board.

So, like what you like, and don't worry too much about what they accept for their boards or how they label aesthetics. If it upsets you too much, just remember that there are places like this where all dolls are accepted regardless of aesthetics!

[Lily]

It's not the DoA rules in particular which caused this, and it's not something unique to DoA - the "Aesthetics" crap and racial generalising is something you see all over livejournal, DeviantArt and blogs and in all kinds of corners of this hobby. I probably shouldn't have used Dahlia Lusion as an example, because her banning and magical unbanning really was down to a particular forum, but she struck me as a particularly blatant example of the vagueness and toxicity of the way "aesthetics" is used in this hobby.

What set off my post was seeing something once again condemning Chinese dolls for "not having the right aesthetic" - without feeling the need to define what this mystical aesthetic is, or which stylistic traits contribute to it, or exactly makes dolls in similar styles from different countries more aesthetically different than disparate styles from the same country.

I mean, sheesh. There are Chinese companies whose style I really dislike - not naming them here because what is definitely not my cup of tea is equally definitely that of others, and it's never nice to see something you love being bashed. Korean companies, ditto. But it's the company, and not the country.

I find it really triggering that "aesthetics" is used in this hobby to mean either exactly what the user wants it to, or nothing and all and b) the extent in which the word is used a a cover for racist generalisations.

It's really the racial privilege being shown in this hobby which annoys me. But I also love language, and I hate seeing words used to obscure rather than enlighten.

[OkamiKodomo]

I was trying to explain the concept to my fiance, and his expression was pretty priceless. Of course then it devolved into a ten-minute-rant on the stupidity of some aspects of the hobby.

But you'll find some sort of segregation in any hobby, no matter the focus. From stamp collecting, to model cars, to BJD, to cosplay, to any fandom of any show or movie, there are always going to be people that separate themselves, and deem themselves superior to other people in the hobby. Let's face it though, there are some people that just like looking down their nose on folks. DolliehSanctuary is a small group, all considered, especially compared to say...DoA... and we're all here because we want to get away from the segregation of some of those 'bigger communities' and any time some sort of arrogance rears it's ugly head, the mods put the kibosh on it before it gets out of hand. Such as the inevitable 'DoA sucks' threads that get locked down. We all have our gripes with certain attitudes in the hobby, but that's why we come here; to enjoy the positive things, but places like DoA and the LJ communities have their place too.

As they say, takes all kinds to make a world.

[Greyhaunt]

Ok....took me a bit to decide how to reply to this (thank Jobee for the support there ) because while I don't feel the topic itself is necessarily volatile or DoA specific the approach here sort of is, and DoA coming up is inevitable because I genuinely believe that anyone blogging or journaling or whatever the whole "asian aesthetic" thing is basically echoing what that forum started.

That said I do not mind a discussion of the "aesthetic issue" here, but I would like it to remain a general discussion not targeting any other forum or specific blog/place from this point forward - ok? As has been noted many times before most of us here are members in other doll forums and I like to treat them with the respect that I'd like them to treat us with if we were ever a place that they felt the need to comment on.

So - for the comfort that it may give any members here I shall refer back to the Dollieh Sanctuary Heretics Manifesto (stickied at the top of the Let's Talk forum) Thesis 3 and 11 which clearly put forth my, and as a result the forum's, position on all this

Thesis 3: The nation of origin of a doll shall have no bearing upon its admissibility into the hobby of BJD regardless of membership's personal opinions regarding the pay scale and manufacturing conditions of such nation.

Thesis 11: Just because the word Caucasian contains in it the word Asian does not thereby bestow the right to define the term "Asian Aesthetic" to a member of that ethnicity. It shall be noted that such right shall also not be bestowed upon members of any other ethnicity that is not actually Asian either.

The thing we need to remember is that freedom of speech is one of the basic rights of the internet. Anyone is free to post any opinion - and at the same time anyone is free to disagree with that opinion. The best, and wisest thing that any of us can do, is ignore those who disagree with us in such ways, and when possible avoid reading their writing at all.

I learned a long time ago that there are doll forums whose policies I don't agree with, and as a result I only go to the areas of those forums where these policies are not going to cause a problem for me.

[magkelly]

I always laugh a bit at people who make a big fuss over doll features or skin tones being not racial enough for them. Mattel in particular gets picked on a lot for not making dolls that are ethnic enough for some people, and really it's not fair at all. I'm an active collector of Barbie dolls and my personal collection runs to several hundred dolls. My collection encompasses so many cultures, faces, skin tones, and whatnot it's really a joy to see them all when you put them up on shelves for display. Mattel has really done a splendid job I think over the years of making dolls that represent many cultures, many skin tones, et all.

They really have considering what they supplies they have access to. FYI, till very recently there were only so many shades of plastic out there and dying or painting dolls isn't all that easy actually. That they did what they did for so long given what they had to work with sometimes that is something I will always give them due credit for. People take for granted too much the newer shades and dyes that have come along, the technology that exists now that makes producing multicultural dolls so much easier to make than say 30 years ago.

They also assume that because they want to see it made that there is a market for it and that people will buy them if given a choice. That's not always so. As anyone who's ever worked retail and stocked toys can tell you it's often the ethnic dolls that are the very last to sell and I've more than once seen little AA girls or Asian girls shrug and put back dolls that do look like them. They don't always want those dolls. They often want the exact opposite of what their parents would like them to choose.

BJD's? Larger fashion dolls? I don't own a BJD mainly because I can't afford to go there really but from what I have seen the availability of dolls of almost any racial makeup in these two groups of dolls is just stunning. If someone is not finding a doll to represent a certain ethnic aesthetic it's probably because they're not really looking very hard.

As for DOA I lurked there for a while but after a while I left and didn't join. Some people there do seem fine, but otherwise I'm just not all that interested. The place seemed like a lovely resource but some of the people there to be blunt they were a bit much. I've had a couple of nasty experiences now with a couple of doll boards, and no I don't particularly feel the need to name them, where the shiz just got so deep that I just got a bit disgusted and finally left. I have no patience for places too full of fakery and snark I freely admit that.

This one I got totally razzed for doing something that I had full permission to do. They said all sorts of nasty things to me basically harassed me over it. A week later someone else apparently more popular than I does the exact same thing and they applaud that person. It was total hypocrisy, cliquey BS, and I couldn't get out of there fast enough after that.

90% of the doll boards I read? I'm not a member because I am reluctant to actually join because of what I often see going on between members. I lurked on this board for a long time before I finally decided to join up. I finally joined because I didn't see a lot of sniping and that going on. I loved the fact that every doll on here no matter how cheap or weird was a cool thing to everybody. It doesn't matter here whether the doll you show off is a $500 BJD or a thrift store Barbie. Everybody is like "Yay!" you know? I really like that. It's nice.

Me, I can't quite believe that any doll that costs as much as a BJD can could possibly not measure up. I mean what kind of standards must you have to think that a doll that has that much work put into it and that costs the moon as a result is deficient in any way? To me that's like looking at yourself in the mirror at your very thinnest weight when you look absolutely trim and asking the person standing behind you "Is my butt too fat?" It's a sign of some majorly disordered thinking. I mean if a freakin cute as a button $500 doll doesn't measure up then what DOES?

[victoriavictrix]

This. So much.

OK. I can see the bigger boards not opening up to the fashion dolls. It's not as if there aren't 11 billion adult fashion doll owners and just about as many boards, since hobbyists form factions and new boards about as often as *ahem* churches do.

But...the resin doll owners are fewer. By necessity. So cut with the phony "aesthetics" crap. You can perfectly well say "Well I just don't like the resin Evangeline Ghastly" but she's still a resin BJD, she still costs as much as the lower end, and you cannot stand there and tell me with a straight face that she doesn't look like something straight out of a vampire manga drawn by a Japanese artist.

And who said you got to redraw the world and only Japan is now "Asia"? Last I saw, that included, oh, India as an example. And why is a fox-headed or cat-headed bjd "Asian" but not an elephant-headed one?

ARG! When you're whining about how intolerant your family or the outer world is to your doll hobby, how about if you extend some of that tolerance you claim you have to your fellow doll-lovers, huh?

[Greyhaunt]

Let me please repeat, that I will leave this discussion open ONLY if other forums are not DIRECTLY REFERRED TO in a post. We can discuss this in an intellectual way, and in a hobby wide issue, but I do not want this to turn into another criticism of a specific place.

Thank you.