Lammily- the "average" doll

[quidam]

I'm curious as to what people think about this idea:
http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Fa ... age-Barbie

I've worked with children for many years, and follow a lot of child blogs. For many years parents, educators, and child psychologists have been wanting a "popular" doll geared toward young girls that has realistic proportions. Let's face it, most adult Barbie lovers know that she isn't quite realistic (if she were real, she would be a cripple living on life support- forget going to the moon), and newer doll offerings make her look like a whale. From a child mental heath side of things, dolls are just one more thing in a world that sells unachievable body image to young girls.
Working with kids, I fully understand idea for a doll that looks more proportionate. But, from the collector side of the hobby...Well, collectors do drive a large part of sales. What do you all think about it? Do you think she'll gain popularity with both children and collectors? Would you purchase an "average" doll?

[Kd_Bunchanumbers]

I personally think it's a bit conceited to market a doll with your name and face on it, and seems a bit suspicious to ask for money when you haven't even printed out a 3d prototype (its why it's not on Kickstarter as that site requires at least physical prototypes before you ask for money).

[quidam]

I personally think it's a bit conceited to market a doll with your name and face on it, and seems a bit suspicious to ask for money when you haven't even printed out a 3d prototype (its why it's not on Kickstarter as that site requires at least physical prototypes before you ask for money).

Okay, what if we take it away from Lammily specifically. (I do see your points!)

How would "average girl" actually fare, especially on the collector end of things? Can this type of doll do well, even when her body isn't stylized? Would Barbie's average cousin be destined for discount bins if she did make it to the mainstream, or would she end up holding her own in time?

[DollyKim]

The point behind dolls, statues, and other artistic representations of human the human form is not to be realistic. We accentuate the features we find attractive, big eyes, long legs, things that are generally cute. Something that is too realistic bothers the heck out of us.

If a kid thinks they're going to grow up and look like Barbie the doll is not their biggest problem. Should I have grown up with Edna and Tracey from Hairspray as my physical aspiration figures because thats the shape I'm in? ZOMG I shouldn't have those skinny Volks boys and Homunculus Jimmy, they might encourage me to starve myself.

And I agree there's something off about asking for money without a prototype unless they want money to make the prototype and can't afford the equipment. I'm in a similar situation where if I had a 3D printer I could do things I can't otherwise. If they have to put their name and face on it fine, it's their project.

[SymphonicEnkelli]

I think the idea is good and that the doll does have the potential to be successful, but I disagree with this idea that Barbie's and the like are evil dolls promoting eating disorders. As DollyKim pointed out, dolls aren't supposed to be an accurate depiction of life. Also, I know when I was a kid I didn't think "Oh, I need to look just like Barbie when I grow up! I need big boobs and a big butt and an impossibly tiny waist." I think kids realize Barbie is a doll, not a human. They are more influence by magazine pictures of "real women" rather than dolls. Now, they may want to be skinny like Barbie, but they don't realize that the human proportions of Barbie are unhealthily thin because they don't see the human proportions of Barbie. As a doll, Barbie looks healthy and proportionate. Furthermore, I think that the messages Barbie and her counterparts deliver are more influential than her body. Barbie can be anything, therefore little girls know they can be anything! Monster High dolls are proud to be different, so are little girls! Ever After High dolls have control of their destiny, so do little girls!

What does Lammily say to children? She promotes an average size, but will a 5 year old understand that? Will she look at Barbie and then at Lammily and think "Oh, Barbie isn't the ideal, but Lammily is!" I don't know. Maybe. And, though Lammily is of normal human proportions, she is still on thinner side. So, if we are talking about something radical, well, I think she lacking. Why can't we have a more plus size doll? Or a doll that is naturally skinny, because that happens too. There are lots of body shapes out there. Why promote just one? That being said, I still think she is a good idea. I think she will be a fun doll to have on the market, but I don't think she will be wildly popular. Parents will likely buy her for her children, but collectors? I don't know. I think we like more artsy looking dolls.

Note: I know I associate mostly little girls with dolls, but I know boys play with them too and I hate to enforce gender rolls. I just simply chose girls to help simplify our ever so limited pronouns.

[quidam]

Furthermore, I think that the messages Barbie and her counterparts deliver are more influential than her body. Barbie can be anything, therefore little girls know they can be anything! Monster High dolls are proud to be different, so are little girls! Ever After High dolls have control of their destiny, so do little girls!

Ah, but the argument from the parental/educator/psychology side is that they say all this, but you must also be thin, pretty (from a Western aesthetic standpoint), dressed well, and wearing makeup at the same time, or it doesn't count.
The problem then becomes, not playing with a pretty doll, but having a mindset that girls do not matter unless they are pretty by a certain, mostly unattainable standard. And with things such as eating disorders, bullying, and even suicide rates rising among the preteen set (heck, even the preschool set), should we really be pushing unattainable goals everywhere they turn, even with something as simple as a play thing?

I'm not trying to belittle the good side that the characters have, but point out that they do have a potential downside that none of the companies have dealt with, at least not on a scale that has gained the same popularity as the dolls with a more "artistic" look. Being someone who has studied both sides, I can tell you that the other side is very real, even if it is often ignored. (Not just dolls, but all things marketed to little girls)

But I do really wonder if a normal doll could stand a chance, or if normal will be equated with boring?

The point behind dolls, statues, and other artistic representations of human the human form is not to be realistic. We accentuate the features we find attractive, big eyes, long legs, things that are generally cute. Something that is too realistic bothers the heck out of us.

That is true, but the artistic ideal of the day is not what it has always been. And, once upon a time, an unhealthy ideal was not pushed at every turn at little girls who just wanted to play with dolls.

I'm not trying to be argumentative about it, and I'm probably getting a bit off topic for my own thread, but it's hard for my mind to unhook all of the issues.

For my own opinion on a realistic doll, as much as I think it is needed, I really can't see it getting off the ground outside of a niche market.

[zirconmermaid]

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/15/garden/she-s-no-barbie-nor-does-she-care-to-be.html

http://www.thestrong.org/online-collections/nmop/2/34/93.558

It's already been done. The "Happy to be Me" doll. I have attached links. I think the main problem with a doll of this type is that the doll would not be attractive to a child unless it had a "hook". Barbie already seems to be losing popularity. Monster High dolls are even more unrealistic and I really don't see that changing.

[SymphonicEnkelli]

The problem then becomes, not playing with a pretty doll, but having a mindset that girls do not matter unless they are pretty by a certain, mostly unattainable standard. And with things such as eating disorders, bullying, and even suicide rates rising among the preteen set (heck, even the preschool set), should we really be pushing unattainable goals everywhere they turn, even with something as simple as a play thing?

I agree with you on this. There are definitely downsides to the dolls. I agree that I don't like the message that to be popular and successful a girl must be well-dressed and fabulous. And I'm certainly not qualified enough to say the Barbie dolls leave no negative impact in children. I really wish there were more differences in dolls on the market, but they just don't seem to appeal to buyers.

So, I apologize for leaving out the negative side of fashion dolls. I just get tired of the relentless negativity towards dolls since, like everyone here, I am very fond of them. That, and Disney princess, but that is way off topic. I feel like society likes to just poke at all the things people and things do wrong and refuse to step back and go "Well, at least they are doing this part right."

Perhaps we are doing that to Lammlily.... O.O

EDIT: I read the articles and I think I see the problem with "average" dolls. Like Zirconmermaid said, they lack a "hook", or rather they have a hook that doesn't appeal to children. Like I said, what 5 year old goes "Oh! I want the Lammlily doll because she is all about being an average size!" (Okay, maybe some children will say that), but other than that, where is the fun? She promotes an issue the many children won't become aware of until they are older. She needs something more.

[FacelessPuppets]

I dunno, speaking for myself I find her really cute and would really like to own one. I like her body shape too.

That said, I wonder if the problem with kids beating themselves up over not looking like dolls is the fact they want to look like bits of plastic in the first place. As someone who is battling body dysmorphia (sorry I had to mention it, but I think it fits in the discussion) I think it also needs to be clear and out there that dolls like Barbie don't actually have or need any vital organs inside that plastic, just like certain anime characters don't actually have or need nostrils :'D (I still like the anime aesthetic, but I'd like to keep my nostrils thank you very much) I know it seems like a no brainer, but some might not take it into account right away, especially if they're obsessed with looking/being like someone else just to be accepted. It takes a bit of a mental slap in the face to see things logically when you're hung up on looking like a model of supposed perfection.

I don't think I've seen many little boys feeling insecure because they don't look like He-Man, and maybe we can find an answer in that. I just think it isn't the stylized fashion dolls' shape that could confuse, but rather the idea that they should look like them, however it came to be accepted so widely.

I do still like this Lammily doll though, oddly enough it's exactly because her looks appeal to me (I haven't seen a doll with that nice of an ass in forever>_> ), I'm actually thinking of sponsoring the project a bit just so I can get one of those first production dolls.

[DollyKim]

Body dysmorphia is much more complicated then wanting to look like a doll or action figure. For the longest time I thought the scar under my eye looked like the Grand Canyon, I even considered plastic surgery to fill it in and it's only four stitches long. It's faded in to the lines of my face now, so I can understand where the feelings come from. You're battling your own brain and what it tells you.

If you like a doll buy it and enjoy it. If you don't like it then don't buy it.