What is with the whole "true" BJD war?

[MeltedCaramel]

Okay, before I start, I thought long and hard about where to put this, and I figured since I (and everyone else it seems) hangs out here, and more importantly they make resin dolls in this scale, thus confounding me further, I'd keep to the usual board. I don't want this to devolve into a flame war. I'm honestly curious. I'm new to the whole doll community as an "adult hobby", only about a year since my first doll, and I obviously don't belong to Den of Angels, where I hear a lot of this "elitist" attitude happens. If I've gleaned a wrong impression, I apologize. My main goal here is to learn. I want to know why this started, why it's such a big deal(like I've mentioned before I've been nicely "warned off" using the term "BJD" for an azone doll), and why it seems many resin doll owners fall into the "elitist" side whereas people who own fashion dolls, monster high, resin, etc, seem to usually fall into the other. Again, this is not singling ANYONE out on the board. I think you're all absolutely incredible, wonderful human beings that I'm happy to have met and enjoy chatting dollieh with. My reason for this post is not to raise a klaxon, but because I'm genuinely confused. How has resin come to be the "true" BJD? To me the word "BJD" is loose and umbrella-like and can encompass everything from that gymnast Barbie I had when I was younger to Obitsus and Volks and resin dolls.

So, anyone with more experience...can you tell me what the scoop is? Half the power is knowing!

[DollyKim]

Basically I see a "true" ball joint doll as one that requires string, elastic, or some form of tension to hold it together. No tension and the doll falls apart. For me something like a Hujoo or an old composition doll would be a ball joint. Asian ball joint dolls get picky about what company they are from and what they are made out of. On topic for Den Of Angels can be decided arbitrarily by people who can wake up on morning and decide they do or don't like the look of something, their party their rules, you don't like them don't go there. Here we welcome all kinds of dolls because that's how we do things.

Dollfie is a term coined and owned by the Volks company, a Dollfie Dream and it's Obitsu made cousin aren't ball joints. They have an internal skeleton that holds them together.

Personally I use the umbrella term "Littles", from Barbies to Obitsus to Volks to Monster High, for any 1/6 scale doll that isn't strung. The lines can be blurred but it generally works.

[quidam]

I think it's just an easy way to set them apart when speaking as something a little different than a "normal" doll. Personally I do tend to assume resin when someone mentions bjd, but then I didn't join the doll hobby until I discovered resin strung dolls that are labeled as such. BJD is also a lot easier to say than "tension strung ball jointed resin doll of possibly Asian origin".

While there may be some elitism in the hobby (as there is with every hobby under the sun!), I really do think the label is guarded simply to set them apart a little more easily. Plus, while fashion dolls do technically have ball joints, their main purpose in being made is to show off fashions.

Technically speaking, though, if it has a ball type jointing system then it is a ball jointed doll. Perhaps some day there will be an easier label accepted by the hobby in general that keeps them in nice tidy groups.

[Tealove]

I'm only partially aware of this war myself cause I'm new. I own some tiny resins, many fashion dolls and several play dolls. I love them all and I have my heart set on more including an iplehouse. I care about their personalities, cuteness factor and even their clothes. I think about what type of doll they are last. So... I don't know. I know many fashion doll collectors also own resin bjd and belong to DOA. They post their fashion dolls in yet another forum just for fashion dolls. I think many people just want to make a distinction between the different kinds of dolls and a few are probably more militant than necessary. I like it here because I can post all my dolls. <3

[MeltedCaramel]

On topic for Den Of Angels can be decided arbitrarily by people who can wake up on morning and decide they do or don't like the look of something, their party their rules, you don't like them don't go there. Here we welcome all kinds of dolls because that's how we do things.

<---Hence why I'm not banging down the door to get in. I'm afraid of committing some egregious faux paus. I'm glad, like I mentioned in my OP, that Dollieh Sanctuary exists.

Dollfie is a term coined and owned by the Volks company, a Dollfie Dream and it's Obitsu made cousin aren't ball joints. They have an internal skeleton that holds them together.

<----See, here's where the whole "BJD" thing falls apart for me. Technically BJD dolls are "Tension String Dolls". This kitbasher knows a ball joint when she sees one, and many of them do indeed have ball joints, swivel joints, and joints coming out the--well, you know. X3

I think it's just an easy way to set them apart when speaking as something a little different than a "normal" doll. Personally I do tend to assume resin when someone mentions bjd, but then I didn't join the doll hobby until I discovered resin strung dolls that are labeled as such. BJD is also a lot easier to say than "tension strung ball jointed resin doll of possibly Asian origin".

<---quidam this made me giggle. "I'll have a TSBJRDOPAO please."

While there may be some elitism in the hobby (as there is with every hobby under the sun!), I really do think the label is guarded simply to set them apart a little more easily. Plus, while fashion dolls do technically have ball joints, their main purpose in being made is to show off fashions.

<---This is what confuses me again!!! "Fashion Dolls" have possibly even LESS clothing than resin dolls!! I mostly notice the term "fashion doll" being applied to dolls such as Azone, Obitsu, etc, which usually are doing either themed dolls or copyrighted characters. If anything I think they should call them character dolls! (Of possibly Asian origin! )

Personally I'm glad to have a place like Dollieh Sanctuary, where elitism looks out of place and frankly stupid. DOA can have their cup'o'coffee and a rule change a day, but I enjoy everything from my itty bitty figmas up to my 14'' (tallest in my collect ATM) Kyuuketsuki Hime Miyu Larva doll.

Thanks so far for keeping this....y'know, civil. <3 I know you are quality people, and like I said, my intent isn't to start an argument but to understand!

[quidam]

Eh, I really don't think the DoA rules are that bad. They are already a very busy board, and I'm sure their moderators have their hands full with the sheer volume of of posts a day as it is. If they were to suddenly turn into an every-doll-welcome board, they probably couldn't handle it. They have to draw the line somewhere and that's where they chose to draw it.

While I don't poke around for other doll forums, I'm sure there are Barbie-only, babydoll-only, so-on-and-so-forth forums out there also. There's place for all types of doll forums, thankfully. It's great DS exists for it atmosphere, and openness to all types. And you know what, I do think it's good that there are type-specific forums.

There's a place for everyone to go, and hopefully a place (or two) where everyone can be comfortable and welcome!

This is what confuses me again!!! "Fashion Dolls" have possibly even LESS clothing than resin dolls!! I mostly notice the term "fashion doll" being applied to dolls such as Azone, Obitsu, etc, which usually are doing either themed dolls or copyrighted characters. If anything I think they should call them character dolls! (Of possibly Asian origin! )

I think it comes down to "fashion dolls" really are a vehicle for the clothes. If you want a new outfit for your Barbie or MH, then you will have to buy a new doll. That is how they are marketed. They, of course, have store bought separate outfits, but they aren't the fancy ones. BJDs, on the other hand, come to you stark naked. You can dress them up fancy if you choose, or you can leave them in all of their naked glory. They really aren't marketed on fashion.

I don't know much about Azone, but I personally wouldn't consider Obitsu a fashion doll. They share the same basic size, but they are about customization first and foremost.

[Tealove]

I've seen lots of specific doll forums. Those are good places to go if you need expertise on a specific doll type. Though I'm sure lots of people can help here too.

When I think of fashion dolls, I tend to think of Tonner dolls, Integrity, Sybarite, Pullip and the like. They not only have lots of clothes, they are occasionally featured in fashion magazines. I could be wrong about that. I didn't know obitsu were sometimes called that. Maybe because people replace their fashion doll bodies with obitsu? And maybe these other dolls can also fit those fashions? Or are jointed like them.

[Geektopian]

Opinions will vary, as in all things, but I recall the term BJD (or ABJD) coming in to use in the late 1990s or early 2000s to distinguish larger scale resin cast elastic strung dolls from fashion dolls (Barbie, Jenny, etc), the related 1/6 scale Dollfie, and action figures.

The "war" seems to have started over how people within the hobby used the term; some more generically than others. Also, as new manufacturers entered the field, the lines became blurred. You now have cast resin BJDs in all sizes and scales, you have BJDs made from ABS and vinyl and you have dolls in traditional BJD scales that don't fit the earlier definition of material and construction methods (like Obitsu's larger scale dolls).

Like with every hobby/genre/subculture, you always have battles about how things are defined and people willing to fight endlessly over who gets to set those definitions. And even in the most seemingly welcoming and open minded of these communities, you will inevitably have an inner circle or elite cadre who seem to direct things to some degree or another.

While DoA has certainly generated a fair amount of drama over the years, in fairness, they've also been victims of their own success. Once a board or social network community emerges as the standard bearer for a hobby/subculture, it always attracts Drama Llamas who want to take control and assert their own agendas while doing none of the heavy lifting (or bill paying) to build or maintain the community. There have been some legitimate complaints of elitism but there's also been a lot of bitching that amounts to "they won't let me bend the rules to fit me".

Much like the doll vs. action figure debate, I ultimately feel that how a BJD is defined is up to the individual. Personally, I don't consider my 1/6 scale Obtisu, Volks and Azone dolls to be BJDs but if someone else wants to call them that, I don't have problem with it.

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

On topic for Den Of Angels can be decided arbitrarily by people who can wake up on morning and decide they do or don't like the look of something, their party their rules, you don't like them don't go there. Here we welcome all kinds of dolls because that's how we do things.

The arbitrariness is one of the things that put me off using DoA as anything much more than a resource for information and pretty pictures. I don't always get the reasons why one doll is on topic and another very similar one off topic. Also my hobby is playing with poseable dolls who don't care what their fellow dolls are made of or how they're constructed (I know this for certain - I asked... ), so I was never really a good fit for DoA anyway!

Tangentially to the OP, it saddens me when I see posts on Tumblr and the like where people are nervous about getting an ABS Hujoo or a lower priced resin BJD as their first doll as they feel they'll be looked down on for not having a "proper" BJD.

[DollyKim]

As the care taker for six Dollzones I'd rather have all of them and not care what people think then one doll I bought because I was concerned about what other people would think first. I fell in love with his face and wanted the same brand of body so the skin tones would match. It wouldn't have mattered who made him and if he wasn't invited to one group's on line forum because of his brand he wouldn't want to be a member.

The only time a stranger in public recognized my Xavier was a ball joint they seemed surprised that he was a Dollzone but in a way that felt like it was a pleasant surprise.