Now is the summer of discontent...with Tonner

[Lily]

Yeah, I hear you. I like the superhero Tonner dolls, but I don't want them particularly, and I like the fuller bodies - Deeanna is so fab, with her real glam. The play dolls are just horrendous, I could hardly believe they were Tonner.

What went wrong with the silkstones? I have a couple of the early silkies and "sets", and none of the later outfits appealed to me so much, but they were so beautiful back in the day - has the silkstone itself changed, or is it just the uninspiring outfits?

[TheHighlander]

Well, that's more of a question for Misheru who is one of the bigger Silkie collectors I know of. However, I think I cna answer part of it. Silkie quality control fell apart at the seams, almost literally. More recently though, it seems that the Silkie line and playlines have somehow cross pollinated each other, and it doesn't appear to have strengthened the Silkstones. Instead it's diluted what made them special. The Silkie face has changed, the material isn't the same heavy silkstone material they used to be made of, and the fashions are no longer the elaborate elegant fashions that they wore. To sum it up, I wouldn't be surprised if a silkstone came with moulded or painted on panties like a play line Barbie.

Tonner seems to be almost doing something similar. They are apparently no longer intrested in their core customers who collected fashion dolls, and are more interested in capturing new character figure markets and playlines. If you look at the way the Cami and Jon line developed, the fashions became much more 'play line' than was previously the case. Tonner's larger doll emphasis is more and more on their own copyrighted characters and on licensed character figures, rather than on the fashion doll collector favorites. In terms of bodies, the 17-inch DeeAnna body and the Athletic version (flat feet) appear to be in very limited production. So much so that the DC Stars character figures are not done on large busted variants of the old 16-inch Tyler body. Tonner recently put a new 16-inch doll up on Tonner Direct, it uses the antoinette (skinny) body and has DeeAnna's headsculpt, but shrunken to fit the smaller, skinny frame. they describe that as the DeeAnna #2 headsculpt. In the past, when a #2 sculpt comes along, the #1 is never heard from again. It seems clear that Tonner has decided to terminate DeeAnna with the Bye Bye Baby doll, they just won't admit it. I guess they reason that technically DeeAnna is still around since the DeeAnna #2 sculpt is in use. Personally I call BS on that. You can't take a voluptuous lady like DeeAnna and turn her into a skinny stick figure.

OK, because there is no official confirmation either way, it is still possible that my fears will be proven wrong. I hope so, but to me, right now, it seems as though Tonner is not interested in their existing collectors or their wishes.

[TheHighlander]

Prudence doesn't look like Prudence any more at all. Especially the newer ones with inset eyes. The face is just different somehow. Ellowyne has changed too, but it doesn't seem as drastic a change as Prudence. The thing is, everyone says change is inevitable, and I think we all understand that. but in the world of collectibles, change has to be handled carefully, because collectibles sell to collectors. Collectors had specific requirements, and when they are not met, collectors move on.

I looked around my bedroom and doll room today and the hundred plus Ellowynes, DeeAnnas, Prudences, Cinderellas, older Tonners (Mei Li originals and the like), Deluxe Superhero girls, etc. I love them so much and felt so sad at the time.

It was the same feeling I had when I looked at my original Silkstones and then at the later years before I stopped collecting them.

Vinyl composition changes, quality of outfits change. Many dolls don't even have underwear anymore (like Silkies and my last Ellowynes!). Face paint is no where near the quality as before, nor is the quality of hair fiber on some dolls.

Ellowyne is still the prettiest doll Tonner still makes, IMHO, but they don't look like Ello of the past and many fashions are just remakes. I am not sure what they did to Pru's face but it doesn't look like Pru anymore. *sigh*

Deeanna Dilemma makes me the maddest. I was one collector they ASSURED (wrote to the top of Tonner CS) that the DeeAnna Denton line was not being discontinued. Even though no new dolls were released in a year, even though the head mold was modified for size and was now being used on the crappy stick-thin/cheap plastic Antoinette body (now named "Frankie" - a new one was launched today BTW), even though they now have a new "deluxe" body that is 16 inch with big boobs and all of their super hero dolls are being produced on it now...yeah, right. I am not stupid.

The funny thing is that all former DeeAnna dolls sold out at Tonner, I believe. So if they are popular and have a following - why discontinue? Collectors will clearly pay more for her quality.

BIG mistake, IMHO.

They lost me and I have made it LOUD and CLEAR.

The same way Mattel lost me when they messed around with Silkstones quality and their cruddy customer service and fan board.

Thank you to Dollieh Sanctuary, Volks and Obitsu. My fandom is now safe.

[Misheru]

RE: Silkstones...They began as the epitome of a 12 inch fashion doll. Combine the original classic Barbie mold with updated styling and focus on classic fashion style. Robert Best was awesome with collections with a specific theme from a fashion capital or area each season (NE vacation, UK, Paris, etc.) - not Palm Beach of the 60s on tanned dolls and Russia (???). The earlier dolls were made in one place so QC was controlled. I suppose it was problematic that it turned out to be in China.

When the whole "Mattel/lead in toys" issue hit, they moved production to Indonesia. It also was an opportunity to lower the quality of the material composition. The 'silkstone'/porcelain-like material just wasn't the same. The head molds were never consistent - many were squashed -faced and too wide. Many dolls came in face paint printed incorrectly. Nail polish on the arms. Hair knotted and no longer rooted on the whole head on many styles. Some dolls came in the wrong skintone and a whole run came with splayed legs and the legs too long. Fashions wouldn't even fit properly. Other dolls had jewelry that turned the dolls heads green. They had a program to recall and replace the dolls - even if they were not affected. You had to send in your dolls and wait months for new ones to be made and then they would send you new ones. The first batch of new ones were finally send after many delays and they were horribly made. So Mattel cancelled the remainder of the replacement program and just sent people refund or certificates for other dolls. Problem was that the dolls they sent in had all been LEs and long sold out. Now their dolls they sent in were destroyed (even if they did not have a current problem) and no replacements were given - just refunds of the regular price. I was very thankful I did NOT send in my dolls and my have never had an issue.

The fashion also went way down in quality. They began to not fit - could not even snap a skirt on one doll and the same skirt from another doll was too big. The seams weren't finished. No underwear. Playline shoes. Silkies used to always have exclusive shoes. Hair was now fuzzy instead of soft and smooth. I even had one doll's hair melt on me when I tried to used a very low warm hair dryer to get her earring out (because they would green her head if left in). I had done this hundreds of times, but her hair melted!

They also always said the Silkie face was exclusive and it wouldn't change. Then we began to see that face mold on vinyl dolls every once in a while. Now this season, I see that there are two other face molds on the Silkie body (even a new Silkie body mold - Francie style with small boobs and flat feet). This year's "celeb" is Grace Kelly and they have a face mold of her on both a playline style body and several Silkstone issues. No difference really.

I don't know. I just got really fed up with Mattel lack of customer service regarding products and I got super fed up with their forum, which is run by Mattel/Barbie Collector. It is horrible atmosphere and it is all egged on and condoned by the mods that work for Mattel themselves and the mods that are chosen from the fan populace. No one listened despite many protests, so many of the good posters left.

I treasure all of the Silkies I have and I would love to have a few of the older ones I never had a chance to get, but I have moved on. I actually get sad when I look at them.

[Lily]

Ah, thank you both for the information on what happened to the poor silkies. I've been terribly out of the loop in Barbie collecting, simply because I ended up with so many I had to call a halt, and I was burned badly by overproduction - it's not that I bought for investment, it's just was painful seeing treasures I saved and saved for going new for half or less of what I paid. I guess I will treasure my own silkies all the more, but I always meant to add a few more in, and it makes me sad if the quality is gone.

Best was always my fave Barbie designer.

Other dolls had jewelry that turned the dolls heads green.

Ha. Well, the line always did play on nostalgia.

(Not really funny because having my dolls destroyed and not replaced would be not fun.)

[magkelly]

I don't mind that Tonner is making smaller or less expensive dolls, but I do mind that most of what they have come out with lately is ultra boring. Half my favorite sculpts are apparently no more and every other doll is on the Antoinette body and I really don't like the small bust on those or the fussy fingers. It's fine for one or two dolls, but I like the articulated Tyler body far more.

I love the Harry Potter and DC lines but far too much of it is 13" now and what's 16" just isn't inspiring me. I like the Hollywood dolls and the Deanna but I haven't actually gone there as yet. I rather covet a Joan Crawford and a Vivien Leigh, but the price tag on those dolls and lately on all the outfits has made buying Tonner new or used almost totally cost prohibitive.

$99 a pop for an outfit is just ridiculous, IMHO and while I like the couple of Antoinette dolls I have, mannequins I painted up, I would never buy a regular doll because I think they're absurdly priced for what they are. (And again, the fussy hands, ugh.) $20 for a pair of shoes, $35 for a skirt? I don't think so.

As much as I love Dr Who and Torchwood I was very disappointed actually with what Tonner did with them. I really wanted a 10th Doctor and a Jack, but I couldn't stand the sculpts on either of them. The original sculpt for Wonder Woman and the Oz Witches I loved, but they've all faded away apparently and I am very unhappy with the end of Brenda Starr as she's a real favorite of mine. Anne and Deanna are nice, but they don't replace her at all so far as I am concerned.

Tonner is really leaning more and more towards the pop and kids market and while I get that, money is made there, I feel his fashion lines are really not as good as they could be as a result of that. His latest muses? I just cannot connect with them at all I am afraid.

Then again I don't like what's been going on in the rest of the 16" doll world much lately. I can't afford most of the new lines. Alex and company have been redesigned to the point where I don't really like them anymore. Gene and company are gone. Clea Bella has gone resin and expensive. Urban Vita's face is just awfully designed, though I do like her accessories.

Even when I go to Ebay there's just not too much there I want to buy lately. New stuff? It's all about the 11-13" crowd lately with me. There are a few older Tonner dolls that I'd like to own someday, mostly some DC ones, but I think I'm pretty much done with Tonner's main line. About the only thing I like coming from that direction is Evangeline Ghastly and that's just an affiliate thing. I don't own one of her as yet, haven't been able to afford her, but I do like her a lot. I think that's why I fell so hard for the MT's actually because they remind me of her a fair bit...