Lammily- the "average" doll

[Anderson'sAllPurpose]

I'll buy it, because I kind of collect different kinds of bodies. If it's articulated I'll definitely buy it!
I have no idea what little girls like doll-wise, though. My main gripe with barbie's unrealistic proportions used to be shelf-like hips made it hard to sew for her, but later designs solved that, so... I can't see it hurting with a bit of body diversity either, but it's going to take more than a doll to make kids belive "average is beautiful" if the rest of the world says something else.

Anyway, I see Lammily is 190% funded now. Let's hope something comes of it.

[zirconmermaid]

Well, I never actually minded Barbie but I grew up with the original ones. Her measurements were different and designed to be correct when she was wearing clothing. And when I got into Junior high I actually did look a lot like her figure. She didn't have quite as long legs in proportion to the rest of her then. And it was her clothes that I loved. Those perfect, gorgeous outfits and accessories, very few of which were actually pink. Tiny zippers and buttons! Silk, real fur! She was a very expensive doll back then, the equivalent of over $30 today wearing just her swimsuit!

[FacelessPuppets]

(Please excuse the huge post that is to follow, I don't even know if it is a good contribution to the discussion, I just typed it out like crazy and now it feels important and I don't want to lose it.)

Thank you DollyKim, that's pretty much exactly what I meant put in a less confusing text. I just read my text over and realized a quick skimming could take it to mean that "Wanting to look like a doll = Body Dysmorphia", which is indeed very misleading. Sorry about that. It was not the intended message.

I was just wondering, people are quick to blame things like dolls and other possible role models for kids comparing themselves to them and therefore feeling bad about themselves. Truth is, if you have that craving some have to perfectly measure yourself up against some semi-fictional standard to feel good about yourself, I think that's the problem you need to address. I personally think that parenting and any other influence has way more effect on how a kid sees themselves than what the doll they play with looks like, unless the influence makes a big fuss about the doll being the standard that the kid should live up to.
I had a good discussion about this with my friend and thought we made some sense:

As a made up example, a mother could show the doll to her daughter and be like "Isn't she pretty? Don't you wanna look like her someday?" (okay that is a little direct but more subtle approaches can have the same effect on kids) versus showing the doll to her daughter and being like "This is a doll. It's a pretty plastic toy and you can make play stories with it. Have fun."
(there can be all kinds of sources for that effect, stuff like peer pressure, beauty and toy commercials or pretty much any kind of media, but I'm going with this one because it's easy to put into a story)

Let's say the first example of a mom would find out that her daughter was starving herself and such to look like her doll, she'd immediately blame the doll for being bad influence. Of course, that's the logical way to go. And still not.

Basically, the conversation came to the conclusion that we tend to blame things for our thoughts because we're too afraid of having a go at our own minds instead. It's a very interesting way of looking at it, and I'd like to know what you think.

Also sorry for the crazy personal talk that is to follow, but I somehow feel it fits the subject and really I feel the need to say it. Just skip over it if you aren't interested. (this is already a horrible wall of text anyway so I wouldn't blame you)


About three or four years ago, I almost committed suicide because I really really couldn't live with my temple-to-jawbone ratio or whatever justification I was using at that time to make it okay to end your life because of your face. Truth be told, I couldn't stand any part of my face. According to myself, my nose was gigantic, round and lopsided, my eyes were tiny and awful (I had an obsession with big doe like eyes at that time, and would look up pictures of girls with larger eyes and compare myself to them with crying and everything), My mouth was tiny, misshapen and frowny and worst of all, my jaw was gigantic and my temples were sunken in, and whenever I looked in the mirror I'd see a terrible trapezoid shaped face. I used to draw a lot of pretty nice pictures, but suddenly I stopped and only ever drew trapezoid shaped cartoonish versions of all my perceived worst features, sort of like political cartoon style. I focused on nothing else.
The weird part is, I knew people with various features similar to the ones I hated on myself, and I still thought they were beautiful. I had some very pretty aunts with wider jaws than foreheads and I recognized their prettiness, but that didn't change a thing for me.
I've made a lot of progress in therapy, and about a year ago I realized there must be some sort of error in my thoughts, and I'm still at the point where I'm trying to make sense of where it is. I was kinda foolishly hoping that I could reach some sort of enlightenment on exactly where that error is by discussing this subject in this thread, and I still hold on to that hope because you guys really seem to know what you're talking about. I have somewhat realized that all the obsession I had over my facial features was silly (I could have been drawing and painting or focusing on school properly or I could just have been doing a bunch of good things for other people, and instead I obsessed over this)
But now I fear if I go on about this, I'll go way off topic. Also because it's the middle of the night and I think I may make some hilariously embarrassing typos soon, if I haven't already.

Sorry for this wall of text, but the good news is that it was really nice and kinda therapeutic to get this off my chest on a forum with people this nice, thank you for that. I'm grateful for the opportunity. If any of the mods feel this post doesn't belong in the discussion I'd really appreciate it if you sent the text to me in a message before deleting it, I kinda wanna keep it for future reference. Thank you, and sorry again about the word vomit.

[Kd_Bunchanumbers]

I personally think it's a bit conceited to market a doll with your name and face on it, and seems a bit suspicious to ask for money when you haven't even printed out a 3d prototype (its why it's not on Kickstarter as that site requires at least physical prototypes before you ask for money).

Okay, what if we take it away from Lammily specifically. (I do see your points!)

How would "average girl" actually fare, especially on the collector end of things? Can this type of doll do well, even when her body isn't stylized? Would Barbie's average cousin be destined for discount bins if she did make it to the mainstream, or would she end up holding her own in time?

I just personally think it's kinda weird to put your face on a doll and declare it to be the AVERAGE WOMAN(tm) instead of designing a different face for it.

I honestly think the angle the person is going for is kind of misguided. If you're going to try to make a body positive role model, you shouldn't just reduce her down to, you know, just her body. And that is what I feel is wrong with Lamilly's marketing. It's just "Look at how average her body is wearing average clothing and average pastimes that don't include dumb stuff like shopping and being girly cuz Barbie's girliness is a detriment" and she has really nothing to stand out from other dolls asides from her body.

With Monster High and Barbie they're not popular because they wear short skirts and high heels. They're popular cuz they represent imaginative play with a lot of different details and thoughts about their characters and friends and a whole slew of things that don't boil down just their bodies.

Also I feel kinda iffy on the fact that she's marketed as the average woman when all is presented is an able bodied still kind of thin white woman. Like sure her body is heavier looking than Barbie's but I don't think the 'average' angle would work out when you're also presenting such a narrow image of "average". I'm just really surprised cuz when dolls like this start up they usually at least offer the doll in two or more skin tones and color palettes you know? And Lamilly is just a 3D render at this point so it wouldn't have been hard to whip up a prototype image of her in different skintones or something.

I don't know, I guess my uneasiness of this doll stems from the fact that her body is her main gimmick and that the guy feels like he's only doing for the attention rather than him coming in with this idea because he wants to help make the doll market a bit more diverse (like Big Beautiful Dolls creators) and help fill in gaps.

At this point I'm kind of expecting it to be more of a scam/attention grab than anything until at least a 3D prototype has printed with actual working joints rather than photoshopped/3d rendered images that kind of shows the figure to be doll like. Cuz there is a LOT of trial and error in making an actual doll with working joints rather than creating a 3d render and saying "well this is what it MIGHT look like please give me 100K".

[SymphonicEnkelli]

^^^ This.

[DollyKim]

When it comes to Barbies and most of my dolls it's the face and hair color combo that attracted me first. I didn't have a Ken for the longest time because I didn't like the smiling Malibu guy so a short blonde curly haired Barbie was my guy. Or I'd want a doll because of its outfit. They all had the Superstar face because that was all they had. I can't think that I used any of them as a doll version of me as they were generally named and modeled after cartoon or story characters. It seems like I spent time doing what we'd call photo stories, without the camera, and working out stuff that lead to my writing.

Kids don't know what you don't tell them or expose them to. 100 years ago doll culture went from baby dolls to girl and lady dolls because it prepared society girls for what was expected of them socially, tea parties, visiting, different outfits for different times of the day. Read the book Made to Play House to learn more. The skinny teenage doll is a late 20th century invention. Build Lilly who Barbie is based on was designed to look like a cartoon and intended for women. When Barbie came out the post WW2 New Look was out too along with the build up of the fashion industry which tells women what they should look like. Shaming a woman in to conforming seems to be a big part of the fashion machine. Only use certain brands to achieve these results, if you don't have this brand you don't belong.

The colors of their skin and "freaky flaws" aside I think what helped Monster High dolls sell is they hit us where our preferences lie. Big heads and big eyes are cute, the waist to hip ratio says fertility, and the bigger feet could be part of the foot fetish which is one of the biggest one in all humanity.

[Trethowan]

Well, I never actually minded Barbie but I grew up with the original ones. Her measurements were different and designed to be correct when she was wearing clothing. And when I got into Junior high I actually did look a lot like her figure. She didn't have quite as long legs in proportion to the rest of her then. And it was her clothes that I loved. Those perfect, gorgeous outfits and accessories, very few of which were actually pink. Tiny zippers and buttons! Silk, real fur! She was a very expensive doll back then, the equivalent of over $30 today wearing just her swimsuit!

I was going to say something along these lines. For me, Barbie was all about the clothes and accessories. And later about killing monsters. Barbie House of Horrors was pretty keen on destroying pesky evil monsters. hahahahaha... Ivan, you're lucky you didn't meet Nancy Barbie, she'd have staked your ass before you could say hello. And she was fabulously dressed while doing so! ha!

I didn't have any notions of body image as a kid, I just wanted to play. Maybe I had a normal 70s-80s childhood, lacking the quagmire of modern day's emotional dilemmas that seen so prevalent. I didn't think about body image stuff until I was a teen and had grown out of dolls. These thoughts were born of typical teenage angst and insecurity, not spawned by a childhood playing with a pretty doll or trying to compare to the same. It never would have occurred to me that I should be thin and pretty because of Barbie. She's just a hunk of plastic. I think a mentally healthy child isn't going to think these kinds of things. If kids are growing up emotionally disturbed about their bodies and are being influenced by adult-level concepts about dolls, I'd say it was the parenting and messages they're allowed to listen to more than skinny-waisted dolls and their own thought processes. I played with Transformers, too. It doesn't mean I tried to look like a robot.

[ghostdollie]

Facelesspuppets, I want to let you know that I hear you, i really do.
For me, making beauty through art, teaching kids to love themselves, and getting older have been the key. It IS possible to soar beyond this. Big hug to you.

On the dolls topic, i've been hired to design a "realistic image" doll for a company (of typical businessmen) and every time I say that they need an imaginative "hook" or MH is gonna wipe them out, they insist that averageness IS the hook. Clearly they have never played dolls! Aaaaaargh.

[quidam]

It's already been done. The "Happy to be Me" doll. I have attached links. I think the main problem with a doll of this type is that the doll would not be attractive to a child unless it had a "hook". Barbie already seems to be losing popularity. Monster High dolls are even more unrealistic and I really don't see that changing.

Yeah, I can see the need of a good hook. The "average in every way- just like you!!!" doll doesn't sound particularly thrilling. Hopefully he finds things for her to do if he does go ahead with the plan.
You mention in another post the original Barbie- Was she originally fashion only and the need for her to do something (everything) came later?

SymphonicEnkelli
No need to apologize! Sorry if I came off a bit harsh! I tend to get frustrated on both sides of the topic, because I understand the viewpoint of both pretty easily in this case.

I don't think I've seen many little boys feeling insecure because they don't look like He-Man, and maybe we can find an answer in that.

Actually there is a rising problem in preadolescence and young teen boys because most toys/ cartoon characters aimed at them do have that body shape. Over working out, extreme dieting, and even anorexia are becoming a growing, if not often talked about, problem for boys.

I honestly think the angle the person is going for is kind of misguided. If you're going to try to make a body positive role model, you shouldn't just reduce her down to, you know, just her body. And that is what I feel is wrong with Lamilly's marketing. It's just "Look at how average her body is wearing average clothing and average pastimes that don't include dumb stuff like shopping and being girly cuz Barbie's girliness is a detriment" and she has really nothing to stand out from other dolls asides from her body.

Ha! Okay. Only one real comment: having her do "non-girly" stuff is actually a very good thing. No matter what a girl does she is being girly- because she is a girl! Just because something is stereotypically thought of as a gender based activity doesn't mean it actually is one. I actually have a hard time with some of the girls I mentor because they really, really want to be involved in _____, but know they can't because it isn't what girls do. It ends up being a battle to constantly remind them that if you want to do something, go for it. Most gender based activities and interests are social constructs only, not actually based in reality! Girls can like shopping, they can also like sports, they can like baking, and they can also like building they can like horses or bugs. Boxing them into one side or the other doesn't help.
Hopefully if he goes forward with his plans he actually includes all sides without just choosing the "non-traditional" activities.

I do want to add one little aside to the whole thing, I don't think that for a majority of us that body image "ideal" was pushed as much in our generations as much as it is with this upcoming one. When you have 4 year olds who want to go on diets, and 8 year olds starving themselves, there is a definite issue. It might not be one that dolls alone can solve, but I also think we're past the point where we can look back and say that during our own childhoods we didn't see this so it probably isn't a huge problem now either. We're, very unfortunately, living in a culture that is extremely obsessed with weight, and the kids are not immune to the effects.

[DollyKim]

So what is "average" for the girl in America today? What does a marketing company think it is? When does Harrison Bergeron call and want it's plot back?

Who's to tell us what's girly and what isn't? The most recent decent role model I've seen for girls has been Emma the girl yellow Wiggle.

Something something why buy Bratz for your little girls and complain about them being over sexualized? Take responsibility for what comes in to your home. An "average" doll for me would have jeans, an endless supply of t-shirts, and a cluttered arts and craft table. She doesn't wear make-up, doesn't shop for designer label stuff, and can never find a truly comfortable pair of shoes.