Please, hobby, stop this "racial aesthetic" nonsense.

[OkamiKodomo]

But that kinda perpetuates the problem, doesn't it? Hehe if everyone has the right to respond over and over again? Well, either way, I've said my piece. Googly, if you'd like a reply, and GH leaves the thread open, it's your prerogative (dude I did not know there were two r's in that word.... I've been spelling it wrong for years!) but I'll bow out now. Any further discussion from myself will be strictly on the actual topic of this thread.

On a lighter(?) and somewhat unrelated note, I saw an article on reborn babies somewhere about a woman who extorted money from the followers of her blog by claiming it was her real baby, saying it had all kinds of health problems, and she needed money to pay for doctor bills, or something of that nature.

[Lily]

I hope it's okay to also reply here, as a lot was aimed at me? I'm going to bow out now, too. Put it down to pregnancy fatigue + disability and in the long run not having enough spoons for a drawn-out SJ discussion. I've already regretted my decision to rant/vent outside a locked lj post. But I feel like I need to clarify my position and why I hate so much the two things - a) the whole concept of "Asian aestehtic" and b) the concept of "Chinese (inferior) aesthetic".

lol Googly, I think you missed the point of this thread. It's not about the hate directed at certain locations, it's about a small, select group of American (predominately Caucasian) individuals that have begun, and perpetuated, a stereotype for doll hobbyists as elitists, who think they have a right to define (as opposed to identify) an ambiguous term regarding what should be Asian, and applied it to a hobby that encompasses people of all nations and ethnicity.

Thank you! That sums it up perfectly.

Again, what I find incredibly problematic is the privilege abuse inherent in Westerners defining what is Asian, to Asian people, and telling them that their creative products aren't Asian enough. From an SJ perspective, yes, it's absolutely racist, in that it perpetuates a system in which a privileged group takes it on itself to have the power to define the "racial" characteristics of another group.

By anology? There's plenty of white Australians who feel they have the ability to define if someone is Aboriginal enough, and to exclude, say, fair-haired and blue-eyed Aboriginal Australians from both their identity and from programs set up to help Aboriginal people. It's a case of privileged group taking it on themselves to police another group's identity. Something similar is going on when a group of Westerners tell a Korean sculptor of a Korean doll for a primarily Korean market that it's "not Asian aesthetic" enough for them. (Using Korea as an example to try and sidestep the parallel issue of Sinophobia, as the owner of Korean company Angelsdoll recently expressed bewilderment and hurt at the nonsensical and Westplaining judgment that their work was somehow "too Western".)

I mean, this might be just me, but if I truly believe that an organization is so awful as to be hypocritical and racist, no way would I go there ever.

But it's odd that people who hate DoA can't stop going there...

Babies and bathwater. There are a lot of decent people on DoA. There are a lot of pictures, and a lot of resources, and a lot of interesting discussions, and a wiki. Taking issue with one particular point, that is not purely limited to them, doesn't change that, or mean anyone "hates" DoA or its members in general.

(Actually - the post that triggered my rant was on lj or a blog - can't even remember which - and had nothing directly to do with DoA, really. It was the last straw in a whole heap of frustration.)

tl/dr; Seriously, calling people racist just because they don't like a doll of your choice is just....ugh. Yes, better call the Southern Poverty Law Center, since I haven't seen such evil form of racism since...ever.

Okay, as this was aimed at me, I want to address and refute it directly. I do not care in the slightest if someone likes any specific doll or not - that's down to personal tastes, and has nothing to do with my objection to the way "race" and "aesthetics" are used in the bjd community. I have little personal stake - none of the dolls in my collection have been ruled off-topic anywhere for being not Asian enough, and Chinese dolls are in the minority of my collection.

I certainly did not, and would not, call someone racist for not liking a doll, any doll. Accusing me of doing so seems like attacking a straw man.

Tangentially - what's with all the reborn bashing? I ADORE reborns. I make them, although I stopped for a long while because of fertility issues, and I love looking at pictures of them. The artistry of the really good ones is mindbogglingly, flooringly good. (And bad ones are also mindboggling in a different way - a shop near where I live sells (or tries to sell) what can only be described as terrifying atrocities with milk spots like fatal skin diseases.)

[GooglyDooglyV.2]

I just find it a bit weird that DoA suddenly been given the burden of setting policy for our entire hobby....when they never meant to. DoA is simply a forum. The largest BJD forum, true, but simply a forum, nonetheless.

Now, if it's somehow revealed that DoA has been pressuring doll companies into making dolls that only DoA wants, then by all means, they should be held accountable. But...how are they at fault, and should it be their responsibility, if a doll company caters to DoA's rule, because they don't want to be excluded in the hobby's largest forum? At the end of the day, it's the doll companies' business decision to make dolls that follows DoA's rules, because they know they'll get more customers that way.

When DoA was simply a small yahoo group, nobody could give a rat's pittooty about what they deem acceptable. When they were just a small forum, nobody cared which dolls they do not like. But suddenly, at no fault of their own, DoA grew and grew and grew. They certainly didn't do anything to perpetuate that growth. They didn't set out to be the largest, most "powerful" forum. It just ended up being that way.

Let me ask this. Without DoA, where do you think the BJD hobby would be now? Those who claim that DoA discriminates against Chinese doll companies conveniently always left out the little fact that most (if not all) Chinese doll companies have originated, or have had some ties (like people being members of DoA first) with DoA.

This myth about Chinese doll companies discrimination is simply that. A myth. Look at how many Chinese doll sculpts that are on the market right now. Let's just take Bobobie/Resinsoul for instance. How many dolls do they have out now? How many are fully included in DoA? How many have been banned or been made OT?

Well?

This "myth" is usually spread by people who for whatever reason, have an axe to grind. Was that too harsh? Probably. But calling people racists just because they don't happen to like the type of doll you do is even more harsh. Racism is such an evil word. It should be reserved for truly evil things.

[GooglyDooglyV.2]

Okay, as this was aimed at me, I want to address and refute it directly. I do not care in the slightest if someone likes any specific doll or not - that's down to personal tastes, and has nothing to do with my objection to the way "race" and "aesthetics" are used in the bjd community. I have little personal stake - none of the dolls in my collection have been ruled off-topic anywhere for being not Asian enough, and Chinese dolls are in the minority of my collection.

I certainly did not, and would not, call someone racist for not liking a doll, any doll. Accusing me of doing so seems like attacking a straw man.

You having objections to a bunch of American or European women dictating their personal view about what "Asian aesthetics" means to them, because of they are not Asians themselves, is akin to to saying that only people of a certain race have a say to what that race should be like.

If that so, can I just say, that as an Asian man, I agree with DoA's "asian aesthetic" term, 99% of the time? And considering the amount of Asians in DoA, I believe that they would know if they have to be outraged or not. That's why I don't understand why people who are not Asians feel like they have to be outraged for our sake. It's extremely condescending, to say the least.

[Lily]

I should never say I'm bowing out. I always end up breaking my word. Maybe this will be my last post.

This myth about Chinese doll companies discrimination is simply that. A myth. Look at how many Chinese doll sculpts that are on the market right now. Let's just take Bobobie/Resinsoul for instance. How many dolls do they have out now? How many are fully included in DoA? How many have been banned or been made OT?

Well?

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall a single person suggesting that Chinese dolls are less likely to be declared on-topic than Korean dolls. This feels like another straw man.

This "myth" is usually spread by people who for whatever reason, have an axe to grind. Was that too harsh? Probably. But calling people racists just because they don't happen to like the type of doll you do is even more harsh. Racism is such an evil word. It should be reserved for truly evil things.

No. Racism is about both big things, and little things. Parallel: I have been discriminated against, abused, and attacked on the street for being a lesbian. These are big things that are homophobic. But someone calling something they don't like "gay" is also being homophobic, just not on the same scale. We don't require things to be on the same scale to qualify for other bad things - shoplifting a bottle of shampoo and stealing the life savings of a pensioner are on completely different scales of impact, but no one seriously disputes that they are both theft. Why should SJ issues be any different?

And again - where did anyone actually call people racist for disliking a doll they liked? I don't recall a single example.

You having objections to a bunch of American or European women dictating their personal view about what "Asian aesthetics" means to them, because of they are not Asians themselves, is akin to to saying that only people of a certain race have a say to what that race should be like.
No - that's not what I'm saying at all. I've cut it down into as simple an explanation as I can, and if you do actually think that's what I'm saying, I just have to give up and concede that I have failed to communicate to you, and I'm at least glad that other people have understood what I'm saying even if I failed in your case.

If that so, can I just say, that as an Asian man, I agree with DoA's "asian aesthetic" term, 99% of the time?

You have the right to. No one is disputing your right to hold that opinion. That doesn't mean other people need to automatically agree.

And considering the amount of Asians in DoA, I believe that they would know if they have to be outraged or not. That's why I don't understand why people who are not Asians feel like they have to be outraged for our sake. It's extremely condescending, to say the least.

You're making awfully big assumptions about me and my family, right there. And I have no idea, and can't speak, and won't assume, for other people discussing these ideas. But I wouldn't preclude them from an SJ discussion on the basis of being white, if they are.

[OkamiKodomo]

-in a sad attempt to diffuse tempers before GH locks us-

lol I'm sorry Lily! I don't mean to rag on reborns! I was just relating an article I saw somewhere. I do think they're a little too real sometimes ^_^; Uncanny valley for me.

[Lily]

Ha, the more real, the more skilled the artist!

My wife got a bit freaked out when she opened a drawer and I'd left one in there, I must admit.

[GooglyDooglyV.2]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall a single person suggesting that Chinese dolls are less likely to be declared on-topic than Korean dolls. This feels like another straw man.

...Um, considering the fact that the main contention of this DoA "asian aesthetics" thing is because that's what they use for judging which doll is on-topic or off-topic...I kinda assumed that's a given...?

And again - where did anyone actually call people racist for disliking a doll they liked? I don't recall a single example.

For a group of mostly American and European women to claim that actual Asian dolls "don't meet an Asian aesthetic" while ones designed by certain Americans and Europeans do is so racist it takes my breath away.

So what if they're American and European? Just because they're not asians, they can't have an opinion about what asians are like?

And especially it's used as a cover for Sinophobia. Because my heavens, is Sinophobia tolerated and even encouraged in this hobby.

I don't believe DoA is out encouraging hatred towards Chinese people Just because they dislike certain Chinese doll sculpts...

I find it really triggering that "aesthetics" is used in this hobby to mean either exactly what the user wants it to, or nothing and all and b) the extent in which the word is used a a cover for racist generalisations.

.....

It's really the racial privilege being shown in this hobby which annoys me. But I also love language, and I hate seeing words used to obscure rather than enlighten.

And that's just the first page.

[Alopecia No Hime]

*headdesk* This thread is a headache that's what...

[OkamiKodomo]

Ha, the more real, the more skilled the artist!

My wife got a bit freaked out when she opened a drawer and I'd left one in there, I must admit.

I probably would too!

But back to the actual topic of this thread... I feel so awful for Angelsdoll, yanno? Gia is a lovely sculpt, just like Ieseul, though I do think she'd look better on the massive body, what with that strong jaw and cheekbones. I hope they don't go redesigning the slim body again; it's really quite pretty, and that wasn't ruled OT.


~~~
Ok, I'm saying one more thing because a post popped up when I hit submit....

Googly. Drop it already. No-one has said a friggin word about hating dolls because they're Chinese. You're the one that started that. You're also the one that came in here with an aggressive tone. Enough already, or GH is going to lock the thread.